kate2006

andy

Hi Kate,

Thanks for your post. I can see your point wrt the Bali-Bombers. They were
interviewed on CNN today. Not very nice people and no remorse, but then again
that is what comes from religious fanaticism (and you thought Rednecks had
problems ;-) )

I am understanding that they will be done with by the end of the year.

Honestly I find it difficult to feel sympathy for somebody who not only has no
remorse but wishes it could have been worse.

However this is the point where the chain of violence has to end. The one
guy went on and on that since "we" are infidels -- we deserve it.

Two wrongs don't make a right and killing them won't bring back the victims.
I would think that something on the level of the islamic equivalent of the pope
should excommunicate them because from what I have learned from islamics is that what they say is totally wrong.

I think the problem with a lot of these people is that they have not been
condemned by their religious establishment. This raises other questions
about whether the Koran has two interpretations. One could read the bible
in a rather hard way too but it generally doesn't happen and what is going
on in Northern Ireland is more political hiding behind religion.

I wonder how one can reach a person who holds them up as being better
than everybody else. A christian would say (normally) that we are all God's
creatures and all entitled to the rights of everybody. As a Catholic I don't say
to the Baptist that they are damned (even though they WOULD say that to
me) but even then they would never consider destroying my home or even
to kill me. I think sometimes football fans in Europe are worse this way ;-)

BTW: I can't private message you because of the database problem with
my account.

Cheers



Andy

kate2006

Unregistered

First of all, i am an Australian and i DONT belive in the death sentence, i also respect everyones opinions, but i want to tell you a story, just hear me out and think about this,

There was a family from Saudi Arabia that move to NSW in 1997, in 1999 the father of the family was arrested for murdering his daurter by stone her death in there back yard because she had slept with a 20 yr guy outside of marriage, the father was sentences to 45 yrs in prison.

Now i think he deserves to rott in hell for what he did, but in Saudi Arabia he would not have done it in the backyard they would have done it in public, because thats there law, and the people in Saudi would think it is harsh that he got put in jail for doing this in Austraila, just like we think death for drugs is harsh, but the fact is when you got to a another country you play by there rules and when you fly out of oz you get handed a card that has printed in big red capital leters: BALI AND SINGAPORE HAVE THE DEATH SENTENCE FOR DRUG TAFFICERS YOU HAVE BEEN WORNED

Andy

Hi

> There was a family from Saudi Arabia that move to NSW in 1997, in 1999 the
> father of the family was arrested for murdering his daurter by stone her
> death in there back yard because she had slept with a 20 yr guy outside of
> marriage, the father was sentences to 45 yrs in prison.

This has everything to do with the sovereignty of the nations. There can be
no argument about it. These people must have known they were taking a
risk. Stupidity however has never really been in my impression a reason for
putting somebody to death--unless you are concerned about the gene pool,
however there are other methods for that (LOL).

Criticism of any draconian measure comes from a position of relativity. I could
say "most civilized people find stoning brutal and uncivilized" But there we
have the problem of perspective. I personally believe (from a religious view)
that God gave life any only he can take it. Life as something sacred has to be
protected. I find it somehow odd that some of these islamic sects who claim
all for the creator would be so rampidly trying to destroy that which the
creator has put forth. So far I have gotten no straight answer from a
"believer" that I found satisfactory. Its sort of like the old girls dolls where
you pull a string and out comes the same thing. I suppose rational people
who an think don't belong to such things, unless they are just being
manipulative.

I think punishments in any case have to be in the measure of the crime.
Murder is irreversable and carries a harder weight--but even that is never
"cut-and-dry". In my fathers words, "these kids just need a good a--
whipping!". Given the manner in which this is done--at least in singapore
I doubt such lessons would be forgotten.

This is an item where I really have to put my foot down. I grew up in an
age where when a child stepped out of line, they got something to think
about and then society was much better regulated and was more polite.
The product of a generation where this has been eliminated has more
quite honestly -- scared stiff! I myself got in perhaps 3-4 times IN MY
LIFE! It was all that was needed. There are excesses of course, but
properly done, it is not the least bit harmfull.

Cheers



Andy

Andy

Hi Kate,

> Which part of the US do you come from - just so I can choose my words
> when I withdraw my comments about rednecks - yours anyway. {G}

Well I certainly am ****NOT**** from Texas! (LOL) I am from the northern
midwest (Indiana to be precise). The whole area is conservative--but not
really bible-thumping.

> As I see it, the biggest problem with fundamentalism of any kind is that there
> are no negatives in their arguments. They have to be right, about
> everything, so there is no room for discussion. As someone we might both
> know of would say, ‘Either you are with us, or you are against us.’

That exists everywhere! But the problem with fundamentalism is that what is
built into it is a refusal to accept anything outside of their own spectrum.

> Sadly people we label as terrorists might never have become so extreme if
> only we had listened to their arguments against what we did in the name of
> ....... [fill in the gaps] Not to say that of all of them, but certainly some.

I am more pessimistic in this regards. People that eventually become
terrorists out of desperation--perhaps. But thats sort of the problem of
fundamentalism.

fundamentailism is not always so blind however -- neither are some red-necks.
In Tennessee in the 1960s a small Catholic church was set on fire twice by the Ku Klux Klan. The third time it was rebuilt -- nothing happened. After many
years the priest betrayed his secret-- that he had taken out fire insurance from
a Klan member. For those not already aware. The KKK didn't like Catholics
(papists) or Jews either. (I am Catholic by the way).

> My understanding of Islam is that the Bali Bombers are from a sect that is so
> extreme they are off the scale, and their beliefs beyond understanding, while
> moderate Islam is entirely different.

Mainstream Islam really needs to condemn such things -- only then will the
people realize that they are really out on a thin limb.

> As to how to reach them - if only we had a clue of what would work? I
> certainly don’t. Maybe you have some ideas?

I have been given these things a great deal of thought of late and think
about putting it together in a kind of study-- which I will call "The Mark of
Cain". I think this is the root of it all--not only terrorism but wars, feuds,etc.
This is the human nature we all have inherited.

One final thought on this. At the risk of bringing religion into this, I will
mention one thing that comes from the Gospel thats very true. "If you
thought of harming your brother--you already have".

If one things carefully about this its true. Not directly--but indirectly
and perhaps even subconscously. I wish people could sometimes be
followed around with a video camera (unbeknownst to them). I think
most people would be shocked.

Cheers


Andy




Kate


For now the data base problem persists, but you could post in ‘Everything else’ if you need to.[/color][/quote]

kate2006

>>First of all, i am an Australian and i DONT belive in the death sentence, i also respect everyones opinions, but i want to tell you a story, just hear me out and think about this,<<



Hi Unregistered, good to have your point of view.

Forty-five years in prison, compared to a death sentence is, IMO, a sign that the law is working. Compared to the law in Saudi Arabia, which obviously panders to ancient, local custom which is also IMO, barbaric.

Like you I think the father charged in Australia with his daughter’s murder got what he deserved, he chose to come to Australia and then ignored local laws and customs. But, had he been sentenced to death I would be doing what I try to do for three of the Bali Nine - supporting them, and doing all that I can to help save them.

Just because the death sentece has been used for more years than can be remembered, it doesn’t make it right, or effective in deterring others.

kate2006

Hi Andy,

>>That exists everywhere! But the problem with fundamentalism is that what is built into it is a refusal to accept anything outside of their own spectrum.<<

Isn’t that expressed by their belief that if the rest of us don’t agree with their views, then we must be against them?


>>fundamentailism is not always so blind however -- neither are some red-necks.
In Tennessee in the 1960s a small Catholic church was set on fire twice by the Ku Klux Klan. The third time it was rebuilt -- nothing happened. After many
years the priest betrayed his secret-- that he had taken out fire insurance from
a Klan member. For those not already aware. The KKK didn't like Catholics
(papists) or Jews either. (I am Catholic by the way).<<

A classic example of commercial interest finding a way to work around principles. I suppose we could say, ‘Whatever it takes,’

We can discuss this issue until the cows come home, and still not have advanced very far, but your quote:

>> "If you thought of harming your brother--you already have".<<

is to the point

Not sure about following someone around to catch them in the act, or the use of the dreaded CCTV cameras, but I like the man who prayed”

“Please make me the man my dog thinks I am.’

Kate

ps Ithink you are the first Hoosier we have had visit us here - come back soon

Unregistered

The wannabe intellectuals who feel the need to post their own manifesto and argue with - and attack other "posters" for some made up reason… It’s the ARGUMENT or FLAME that drives them...a TROLL is the common day term I think.

Let me get on target:

The Bali Nine...or Six are living the last few days of their lives...As soon as the Bali Bombers are executed....I would say within the 14 to 30 day window, Indonesia will execute these men...in short order to calm the radical Indonesian terrorist huggers who will be "angry" (what else is new?) about the bomber executions.

This is a cruel and dangerous world...and so many are naive and ignorant of that fact...Aussie, American, and Canadian and let's just add most of Western Europe…

One thing is for sure....those Qantas flights will remain chock full of Aussie holiday seekers - on the same planes that will ultimately repatriate the Bali 6 bodies back to Australia.

I admire the activism…it is a good cause…but I would admire more if people would boycott and sacrifice a little of their own lifestyle to send Indonesia a lesson.

Andy

> The wannabe intellectuals who feel the need to post their own manifesto and
> argue with - and attack other "posters" for some made up reason… It’s the
> ARGUMENT or FLAME that drives them...a TROLL is the common day term I think.

If You are the same Brave soul that posted under this forum before -- you would
most likely be refering to me. Wannabe... Hmm IQ 141, Mensa Member Perhaps
not--Must be somebody else ;-)

In any case it would be nice if you were a little more positive and perhaps a little
less defeatist. This is after all a "supporter chat" forum.

Cheers


Andy