possum

No one should be executed...

"Justice Must Not Kill"

Unregistered

I think with a name like "Banjo" it says it all. I hope they do die a painful death, they are as stupid as you.

kate2006

In case you haven't noticed Unregistered, this is a Bali Nine support site.

n response to your post I quote from Admin’s ‘Welcome to the site’ sticky:

>>We encourage any discussion concerning the plight of the Bali 9 however please keep the following in mind...
• Racism will NOT be tolerated.
• Hate filled or derogatory comments aimed at members of the Bali 9 or their families are NOT acceptable.
• We do NOT support the death penalty.<<

That said can you tell us why you felt the need to post such a hate filled message? I don't agree with you, but would like to know what triggered that response.

Andy

I have been lurking in this forum for quite a while. I am sorry that i am
not registered. There was a database error message when I tried.

I am a US citizen--but very much against the death penalty--especially
in this case.

I live in Europe now where there is no death penalty. I have also lively
discussions with an Indian (from india) colleague about my "Coca Cola"
habit. In this I have started to see the islamic view on "mind altering"
substances. I personally think these views are rather extreme and don't
even take into account that drug addition is a sickness rather than a
crime. Like many things the islamic view on this subject is very black
and white. (I get a lot of BS about my Coke habit) So this helps me
understand what these people are getting at in the "justice" system,
though I don't agree.

We had discussed the death penalty at great length from opposing views.
His position was that it is a serious crime because such amounts affect
many people--and for that reason warrant death.

I personally think this is not a solution. Death certainly assures there
are no repeat performances--but I believe there are other ways.
Furthermore one has to look at some of the players in this story. I
think they are in two very distinct groups.

I feel very much for Matthew and I keep him and the others like him
in prayers that they can cope with the situation. I do not have much
sympathy for the organizers and ring-leaders of the drug scheme.
Having said that--I don't believe death is the right penalty for this. I
personally would look for ways to rehabilitate them. As their crime
was against society--they should have to do something to serve
society. In other words let the punishment fit the crime.

If what I read is true about the complicity of the Australian police, then
I would think they too should have something to answer for.

Has your country every come to the point of having a declaration
of position on the death penalty? I would think this could be used
as a basis to block information that could lead to your people in this
situation.

Cheers


Andy

Unregistered

You sound like a generalist, racist prick.

Andy

That may be true to a point, but we certainly know what you are ;-)

Deary -- please make sure you read the acceptable use Policy before you
post -- or perhaps mummy spank :-)

kate2006

Hi Andy

Good to hear from you. I’m sorry you had problems registering, maybe whatever caused the glitch has been fixed by now, and you can try again. Sorry too that you came up against one of the unthinking hate mongers who occasionally drop in here.

I think that some politicians in countries that retain the death penalty [DP] keep it to appease red necks who see execution as a way of getting rid of a problem, rather than looking for other deterrents. I don’t know whether you think this applies to your country. By red necks I mean those at the far end of the spectrum from people totally opposed to the death penalty, with others between the two.
In the countries that retain it there are many crimes that attract the DP, here we talk mainly about it as it applies to the Bali Nine. I have found in face to face discussions that people often are against the death penalty but see no other means of punishing people who get involved, so go along with it. Discussing what a prison sentence involves, and the conditions under which it is served, often lead to a more reasonable approach, as you might have found in your discussions.
The old myth that people in prison live a life of, if not luxury, then far better than people on the outside, with free tv, games, air/con/ cooking equipment, three square meals a day, etc come from people who have never seen the inside of a prison, or even talked to someone who had. Nothing could be further from the truth, especially in Keroboken where the Bali Nine are held.

I agree that drug addiction can become an all consuming sickness, but for the great majority of users, recreational as well as casual, who buy it when and where they can, little if any concern is given for the people who put their lives at risk to supply their goodies. The Mr Bigs are protected in ways we don’t fully understand, but the average mule is caught while trying to keep up supply, usually for a minute payment, compared to what the pushers and organisers will get. Meantime the pullers/users ignore the risks that mules undertake on their behalf.

To even consider becoming a mule is an act of stupidity, as our friends in Kerobokan will agree, but if there were no pullers, pushers would be out of business and the Mr Bigs would have less incentive to keep importing.

Research world wide shows that the DP is not an effect deterrent, I don’t know what would be, but judicial murder is, IMO, not the answer.

There is much discussion as the rights and wrongs of actions taken by the Australian Federal Police in sending the B9 to a country that has the DP. Many of us are hoping that the newly elected federal government will enact laws that will clearly state that this must never happen again, keeping the AFP from being able to interpret the current laws as they see fit.

Do come back and offer your thoughts on anything I have posted, it is always good to have the opinion of others who do or don’t share our opinions.
Regards,
Kate

Andy

Hi Kate,

Thanks for your message. Actually our "friend" was referring to somebody
Else's post. I read the first part and not the quoted text. I think still that I
liked my witty reply.

To your point about "rednecks" ;-) I am smiling because most of my best
friends where I grew up with the midwest were rednecks and are some of
the most truest people you will ever meet. Interestingly though -- they are
not the ones that are pushing for the DP. That goes to the religious right
that is controlling most of the political process. As you might imagine, red
necks just don't have that kind of clout.

Despite my opposition to the DP, I do have a rather radical cynical side.
The last time somebody pulled my "chain" here I replied. "You know you
are correct about the DP, but the way we do it is just wrong. We sanitise
it and make it pleasant for the witnesses. Now there is question about
whether the prisoners feel pain (lethal injection). Not only that, compared
to the colonial days where the public hangins were a festive affair that
people did after church where the whole town can see -- few people see it
and thus it has lost its deterring value. If we were really going to do it right,
we should do it with the Guillotine in the public square and put it on television
and then hold up the head. Do it up right like the did in the middle ages!
That would shake them up and scare the crap out of people and maybe then
they would see if for the barbaric ritual that it actually is".

I think most people are not so far gone that the DP is the right solution.
If you get people early enough, this development normally won't come
and for those few that are just are too much for society, they should just
be safely separated and put to work for the better of society.

The real problem is when government and religion mix, as is the case in
Indonesia and most of the Islamic countries. I think to the credit of our
founding fathers, they wisely separated this. If only they could see the
wisdom that most ever other western country has already seen.

my EUR 0.02 (2 cents--which in the moment is more valuable than my
other $0.02.

Cheers



Andy

PS. Database problem is still there. (try choosing the same 'andys' and
use your own email)

kate2006

Andy

Hi Kate,

> It is easy to get caught up in semantics, forever arguing the rights and
> wrongs of the DP, the how, when, and who. I prefer that people come out
> and say that they support it, rather than all the goobledegook they use,
> always ending in the dreaded ‘BUT...’

Jeez I felt that one kind of whiz by my head ;-)

Perhaps I should better clarify my position--since it might have been
obscured.

Not long after I made this post I had a similar conversation with some
of my German colleagues. As you probably are aware there hasn't been
a DP here since 1949. I had said that in the US it is over-applied by a
huge margin. They asked me if I supported it by this statement. I said
that based on the DP's stated purpose (to rid society of people who are
unable to be rehabilitated and are a danger to itself) it is over-applied.
In this case I was stating the justification that has been used for the DP.

Now to my opinions--which are my own ;-)

The problem is that many times people do find rehibilitation while in
custody (like Ms. Tucker in Texas) or the guy Tucky who wrote childrens
books warning of gangs. Then there are the people who were convicted
of circumstantial evidence.

So one could say that based on the stated purpose of the DP (at least in
the US) perhaps 0.1 percent of the people who get it --warrant it.

My colleagues were quick to point out that if we do about 100 a year
(which I believe about right) that would mean that one in ten years
would truly warrant it and for that kind of numbers --better still to
lock them away forever--which I tend to agree with.

Certainly drug trafficking is a rehabilitatable crime! I would be eager to
hear how to rehabilitate terrorists like the Bali-Bombers however. We are
after all talking about how to improve society. Rehabilitation has to be the
way forward from the DP.

So please remember class, that there is a difference between stating ones
personal opinion and parotting what has been written about something ;-)

Cheers



Andy

PS. Thanks for your comment to the DB administrator :-)