Damned if we do, damned if we don’t

kate2006 · 12-17-2006, 10:51 AM

This article makes for interesting reading, especially as the author is:

>> Dr James McConvill is a lawyer and Principal of The Corporate Research Group in Australia. His most recent book is In the Pursuit of Truth: Reflections on Law, Life and Contemporary Affairs (Sandstone Academic Press, 2006)<<

It was nominated by one poster as:
>> No offence, but this is singlehandedly the most one-sided, nasty article I've read on OnlineOpinion - and there have been some pretty intense contenders.<<

Other posts make some good points too.

http://tinyurl.com/y8fnlw

Bali Nine can thank the civil libertarians
By James McConvill - posted Thursday, 7 September 2006

Following the sentences handed down to members of the Bali Nine by the Bali High Court earlier this year, some commentators argued that the Australian Federal Police had blood on its hands for providing information to Indonesian authorities which led to the arrests. Following the harsher sentence of death by firing squad imposed on four of the Bali Nine by the Indonesian Supreme Court this week, it is civil libertarians in Australia’s media, parliament and universities that have blood on their hands.

No doubt when six of the Bali Nine are eventually executed, the civil libertarians will light a candle for*them and protest as to how the death penalty is draconian and violates fundamental human rights. But this would once again highlight the hypocrisy which washes over the soft Left in Australia.

Rather than being left to sanctimoniously light a candle in peace, the civil libertarians should be condemned and condemned hard. They have aided and abetted a cruel execution of a group of misguided young Australians. Not only have the civil libertarians become extremists in pushing human rights to a community that sensibly prefers the common good, they have become dangerous extremists that pose a serious threat to the life and well-being of Australians............

I will be interested in comments from other members. I am willing to put my hand up as being a latte drinker, but also someone who believes that parliamentarians are not the fount of all knowledge, that they can and do get things wrong, and that we, the voters, are responsible for telling them so at times.

doublestandard2007 · 12-29-2006, 06:58 PM

law not their law...

kate2006 · 01-04-2007, 11:03 AM

Read out of context I can see that new posters might not recognise that we post articles and reports here that make us think, and hopefully, respond to anything that is about the Bali Nine.

In Australia referring to people as the ‘soft left’ is a veiled insult by the ‘hard right.’ I fail to see though how people wanting the death penalty abolished world wide can somehow be accused of having “ aided and abetted a cruel execution of a group of misguided young Australians.“

We know that Indonesian law is not Australian law, and must be respected - the Bali Nine themselves recognise that, having done the crime, they will have to do the time - but why the death penalty when loss of liberty is the worst of punishments? And how is trying to reverse,“a cruel execution of a group of misguided young Australians“ aiding and abetting it?

Sometimes we have to accept that the hard right are only happy when ridiculing anything the ‘soft left’ attempt to do - there needs to be good will to find common ground, not disrespect

banjo · 03-10-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kate2006

Read out of context I can see that new posters might not recognise that we post articles and reports here that make us think, and hopefully, respond to anything that is about the Bali Nine.

In Australia referring to people as the ‘soft left’ is a veiled insult by the ‘hard right.’ I fail to see though how people wanting the death penalty abolished world wide can somehow be accused of having “ aided and abetted a cruel execution of a group of misguided young Australians.“

We know that Indonesian law is not Australian law, and must be respected - the Bali Nine themselves recognise that, having done the crime, they will have to do the time - but why the death penalty when loss of liberty is the worst of punishments? And how is trying to reverse,“a cruel execution of a group of misguided young Australians“ aiding and abetting it?

Sometimes we have to accept that the hard right are only happy when ridiculing anything the ‘soft left’ attempt to do - there needs to be good will to find common ground, not disrespect

We don't have to respect anything or any law we don't want to.
The Bali 9 had to be tried under Indonesian law...they had no choice...but I do not have to respect it.
There's way too much of this "we must stay silent and praise and love Indonesia because it is easliy offended" nonsense going on.
Indonesia intends to MURDER our citizens in cold blood....take them to the death site one morning and kill them DEAD......BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG.

A whole lot of people are a whole lot angry about it.

banjo · 03-10-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kate2006

This article makes for interesting reading, especially as the author is:

>> Dr James McConvill is a lawyer and Principal of The Corporate Research Group in Australia. His most recent book is In the Pursuit of Truth: Reflections on Law, Life and Contemporary Affairs (Sandstone Academic Press, 2006)<<

It was nominated by one poster as:
>> No offence, but this is singlehandedly the most one-sided, nasty article I've read on OnlineOpinion - and there have been some pretty intense contenders.<<

Other posts make some good points too.

Bali Nine can thank the civil libertarians
By James McConvill - posted Thursday, 7 September 2006

Following the sentences handed down to members of the Bali Nine by the Bali High Court earlier this year, some commentators argued that the Australian Federal Police had blood on its hands for providing information to Indonesian authorities which led to the arrests. Following the harsher sentence of death by firing squad imposed on four of the Bali Nine by the Indonesian Supreme Court this week, it is civil libertarians in Australia’s media, parliament and universities that have blood on their hands.

No doubt when six of the Bali Nine are eventually executed, the civil libertarians will light a candle for*them and protest as to how the death penalty is draconian and violates fundamental human rights. But this would once again highlight the hypocrisy which washes over the soft Left in Australia.

Rather than being left to sanctimoniously light a candle in peace, the civil libertarians should be condemned and condemned hard. They have aided and abetted a cruel execution of a group of misguided young Australians. Not only have the civil libertarians become extremists in pushing human rights to a community that sensibly prefers the common good, they have become dangerous extremists that pose a serious threat to the life and well-being of Australians............

I will be interested in comments from other members. I am willing to put my hand up as being a latte drinker, but also someone who believes that parliamentarians are not the fount of all knowledge, that they can and do get things wrong, and that we, the voters, are responsible for telling them so at times.

Yes well ol James should go and bop himself on the head with a baseball bat...might knock some sense into him.

The Death Penalty should be abolished worldwide...YESTERDAY....and WE should be saying so.....LOUDLY.

http://www.foreignprisoners.com/

The death penalty is the ultimate cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment.

It violates the right to life.

It is irrevocable and can be inflicted on the innocent. It has never been shown to deter crime more effectively than other punishments.

Foreign Prisoner Support Services is in total opposition to the death penalty under all circumstances in all countries. The abolition of the death penalty contributes to enhancement of human dignity and progressive development of human rights.

FPSS supports the Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, aiming at the abolition of the death penalty. Adopted and proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 44/128 of 15 December 1989. This is one of five international human rights treaties that make up the International Bill of Human Rights [below].

Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)

kate2006 · 03-12-2007, 10:31 AM

We don't have to respect anything or any law we don't want to.
The Bali 9 had to be tried under Indonesian law...they had no choice...but I do not have to respect it.
There's way too much of this "we must stay silent and praise and love Indonesia because it is easliy offended" nonsense going on.
Indonesia intends to MURDER our citizens in cold blood....take them to the death site one morning and kill them DEAD......BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG.

A whole lot of people are a whole lot angry about it.
Reply With Quote

banjo,
You and I can choose whom and what we respect, but if Australia doesn't respect the laws of other countries why should they pay any attention to ours?
Far from keeping silent many of the people who post here are constantly trying to to get death sentences commuted to prison time by writing to anyone we think might be able, and willing to help. As for praising and loving Indonesia,as many people already do, that I think would go down a lot better than threatening and abusing.
Some Australian politicians may lean over backward to not be seen rocking indonesian boats, but that is their problem, and we can deal with them at the ballot box.
That said it's good to have your views, and I understand you anger. On bad hair days I share them both.

banjo · 03-14-2007, 03:24 PM

Australia at the moment is a patsy for other countries......"they're laughing at us" a radio host said the other day.
He, like my friends and I, sees our govt as weak.

The current Australian govt is selective at which laws of other countries it respects.....it spoke out for Hicks, but not enough for Schapelle Corby and the Bali 6.

John Howard is cheering for the Bali bombers to be executed.
THIS makes it very hard for us when we are trying to stop the executions of our youth.
He's wrong, like he has been about many things.
He seems to now be too old and not able to grasp public opinion over Schapelle and the other kids.

kate2006 · 03-14-2007, 04:36 PM

Australia at the moment is a patsy for other countries......"they're laughing at us" a radio host said the other day.
He, like my friends and I, sees our govt as weak.

The current Australian govt is selective at which laws of other countries it respects.....it spoke out for Hicks, but not enough for Schapelle Corby and the Bali 6.

With a federal election so close and more people demanding that the government do more to get him released that has swelled the numbers and numbers are what gets results.

If more people could let the government know we want more, and better representation on behalf of the Bali prisoners perhaps they might pay more attention - realistically only the federal government carries any weight with Indonesian authorities. The more people are seen to support them, the more likely we are to get Australian politicians moving.

John Howard is cheering for the Bali bombers to be executed.

He has certainly been lukewarm in their support - but for as long as he publicly supports the execution of the Bali Bombers, he gives the impression that he personally supports the death penalty, and so can’t be seen to claim an exception for the Bali prisoners.
I make no excuses for him, he is very attached to his own views and beliefs - despite claiming to govern for us all - and his private preferences seem always to get priority when it comes to making decisions that affect us all..
THIS makes it very hard for us when we are trying to stop the executions of our youth.
He's wrong, like he has been about many things.
He seems to now be too old and not able to grasp public opinion over Schapelle and the other kids.
I understand and share your frustration and anger - but, as it is an international matter, I don’t see any way of changing things without the assistance of the Australian government.
My only suggestion is to let them know your vote goes to the party that can be seen to be doing something to get the death penalty changed - especially let your local candidates know this, they will put pressure on the PM if they think it will affect them personally. Sad but true..

AussieJBL · 07-28-2007, 05:43 AM

what we have to keep in mind though, that there are more Australians than just the Bali 9 and Shappelle incarcerated in that prison and other prisons world wide. John Howard needs to pull his finger out of his ass and just say "right we're bring them home, you try to stop us and you will pay", just like he would do if it were his own children going through the same thing.